Do you think a discourse that is targeted toward all lisp users is a good idea or a bad idea?
The current venues I frequent where I may see lisp discussion are
r/lisp
textboard.org
lainchan
https://www.discourse.org/
I would host it, of course.
Do let me know if this is a bad idea or not.
There are other discourse forums I frequent for particular programming languages and overall it's an enjoyable experience.
What say you?
The largest reason is I find people who use Lisp to be interesting.
The ones who actually use it though and don't get caught up too much in what it means to program.
Is it a side effect of the language or is it a side effect of the people drawn to the language?
In either case, casting a wider net or setting up a bug zapper to see more interesting discussions would be worthwhile
Another option would be to make a "lobsters/hn" except it's only for lisp users :^)
A Discourse for Lisp users
Why would that be a good idea?
What is wrong with the current discussion forums?
It might be a bad idea to further split the community into yet more forums.
schemebbs, do you know uh?
Why would that be a good idea?
Discourse has many pavlovian incentive features that encourage people to post
And categories that welcome different type of posts.
And links more of a constant identity compared to anonymous forums.
What is wrong with current discussion forums?
Most of Lisp is dated tech.
And it's hard to figure out the "pulse" of what is acceptable and what's not.
Books are old. People are old. Packaging systems are old.
It's good enough, but it's getting to the point where choosing Lisp is more work and not even that fun.
Of course, since most Lispers are on their own, by design most likely
Most lispers are anonymous, by design most likely
Not to imply that collaboration is always a necessary good; it's just such an unlikely scenario with the above attributes to have anything more than scattered forums.
There is no way I would ever collaborate with anyone from the forums I mentioned in the OP.
It just doesn't happen. It won't happen. I don't see why it'd happen. There's no basis for it to happen.
There's no real common culture.
There's nothing other than the language with a whimsical name and strange people that pass through it, through the revolving doors of its existence
To conclude:
it is simply an offering that doesn't promise anything but calls into question the current culture.
Reality is that most Lisp content is spread across random blogs vaguely hearkening back to the better days but there's no real such thing as a lisp community or opinons or anything.
New blood, new people, interesting things.
I don't care if Lisp is practical, I just want interesting things.
When I see the word "Lisp" I feel "dead" and "ancient"
Bad idea to furhter split
Certainly, but wouldn't you rather try something interesting and then see it fail?
From my vantage, Lisp is on life support.
And this isn't an evangelical sort of thing, where it's like, "Oh, if only we all used Lisp then everything would be better!"
I just want something interesting to happen through Lisp.
That's all.
We don't exist for Lisp; Lisp exists for us, and through us.
I just want Lisp to being the morning star that Lucifer was.
dated tech
Before someone reads this as, "Oh let's rewrite everything!" in a rust fashion; again, this isn't a worship of the language.
I just want to see interesting people congregate and make something interesting.
There are already things happening in those scattered Lisp forums, so not all hope is lost; there's a reason why I wrote this post as a questionable idea at best.
It is just simply a proposition, with the single-minded goal of seeing something cool happen, that is all
From my more cynical view, I think it would be a trashfire and die within a week so that's why I opted to post a day-dream on uhh schemebbs :^)
>>3
It could be called "lispters".
>>6
People are drawn to the power of LISPs and use them to develop real software. You don't get an accurate representation of the strength or usage of a language by looking at what's popular on public internet forums. I think "social" people are drawn towards languages like JS, Ruby, Python, etc for whatever reason. Social people are much more likely to namefag on forums/reddit and pump out endless blogspam which gives a false representation of how "alive" the language is. Of course those languages are used, but the amount of substantial software written in those languages is nothing compared to Java, C, C++. And by "substantial software" I mean something other than webapps that power adtech/SaaS startups which will be gone and forgotten in 2 years.
I think I may have just restated one of your points in a more verbose manner, but I'm trying to say that judging how "alive" a language is subjective. And I have no real interest in reading a bunch of spammy blog entries written to farm upvotes reddit or hackernews. That's not to say I haven't stumbled across many excellent and informative blog entries that made me a better programmer, but that quality > quantity *ESPECIALLY* with the current state of the internet.
I really don't think there's anything wrong with the state of LISPs right now.
>>8 will keep in mind :^)
>>9 Your point is compelling.
And, in an ironic fashion, I find a lot of open source to be a sort of psychosis.
Perhaps deep down I just want to see how and what smart Lispers are up to.
Smart programmers are up to. If I were more determined I'd scour the blogs, and maybe I will.
Open source and most social grounds online are a sort of neurotic playground for the most part.
So are most "alive" communities. So your post serves as a reminder.
There's a biting self-awareness about an emphasis on "social" which I completely agree with. People escape into "social" as an excuse or as a distraction most of the time; at least in my experiences in working with others.
To dig into why I wrote up this thread:
Just looking for more ethos behind the words, "I'm going to use Lisp for my next <x>." - I am not confident enough to do such a thing at the moment.
In a more skin-ripping reflection, probably just trying to find joy in programming and the last time I found that was using Lisp and using Emacs but now I use neither :^)
S-C-H-E-M-E-B-B-S
>>10
i recommend you do the following when you see someone very viscerally defending free software: do not take it so seriously
i do not take 90% of the things i say seriously when i defend free-software
as a matter of fact, i do not take 90% of the things i say online seriously
there are retards—obviously—but most are not
paranoia is part of the charm :3
do not take it seriously lol
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λλλλλλλλ λλλλλλλλ λλ λλ λλλλλλλλλλ λλ λλ λλλλλλλλλλ λλλλλλλλ λλλλλλλλ λλλλλλλλ >>1
Lainchan is nice for Lisp, but I probably use here for Lisp more, by now; I can only discuss Lisp for so many years. Anyway, it's a bad idea. Why would I make an account with this, when I could write on my website instead? At best, I'd discuss my work there and still link to my website, but I can do that here.
Is it a side effect of the language or is it a side effect of the people drawn to the language?
It's the latter. People who get serious about programming see the defects in Lisp as well, and may seek out better.
Discourse has many pavlovian incentive features that encourage people to post
What would these be?
And categories that welcome different type of posts.
Sure, but this would primarily be for Lisp anyway.
And links more of a constant identity compared to anonymous forums.
Again, I can do that better with my website.
There is no way I would ever collaborate with anyone from the forums I mentioned in the OP.
It just doesn't happen. It won't happen. I don't see why it'd happen. There's no basis for it to happen.
There's no real common culture.
There's nothing other than the language with a whimsical name and strange people that pass through it, through the revolving doors of its existence
I completely agree.
I just want Lisp to being the morning star that Lucifer was.
The age of Lisp has come to an end. Lisp can serve as the implementation language for this Lucifer, but he will have little resemblance to Lisp at that point.
And, in an ironic fashion, I find a lot of open source to be a sort of psychosis.
This sentence reminds me of this: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=4012
Perhaps deep down I just want to see how and what smart Lispers are up to.
Smart programmers are up to. If I were more determined I'd scour the blogs, and maybe I will.
Someone will complain if I link to my website, but I may have revealed enough to make it obvious, anyway.
>>12
Although the underlying tenants of free software have little basis in reality, having some sort of ideal to shoot for is what makes the world interesting.
This isn't to say one ought to be militant and paint the world in your image.
But after being drenched in practicality for quite some time, most things don't have a tune. The music stopped. It's all noise.
Idealism is a hearth to a meaningful reality, and that is why I've respect for the free software advocates. Crito comes to mind.
A respect, even if they may find themselves naively in despair over inevitability. May they prove us all wrong.
What would those be?
Ranking systems, "likes" & badges, amongst other things.
In either case I've been playing around with making my own website.
We shall see.
It's unlikely I'll go through with this, for the poster that talked of social-centric things as a sort of disease I cannot refute, nor would I want to refute.
You are welcome to link yours in a base64 :^)
The age of Lisp has come to an end.
What is next then?
Ranking systems, "likes" & badges, amongst other things.
That seems to be like Reddit.
You are welcome to link yours in a base64 :^)
I'll link to the discussion here about it: http://textboard.org/prog/13
What is next then?
I believe in the superiority of specialized programming tools, not languages, tools which permit none of the common errors and which require none of the common rules. Programs shouldn't be written in the same tools for writing human language. There are better ways and I know this; I've already written one such tool.
>>14
stanis-chan's article was accurate as a scalpel
thank you for posting it, it had been a while since i had readed him
Someone will complain if I link to my website, but I may have revealed enough to make it obvious, anyway.
So, you admit that you are that nasty spammer who is obsessed with link spamming on textboards, imageboards, and forums. Have you no shame? Soon, the programming language and Lisp community will need to add mentions of your website to the ad blocking blacklists.
>>14
How do I avoid becoming Type III? I want to write programs but I don't have any original ideas. ;~;
>>20
Join a worthy open source venture.
Some may have a fantasy of starting and being a significant contributor to some project.
But if you don't have any ideas, and you don't know anyone cooking up new ideas,
then your best option is to find well-along projects to contribute to.
>>20,21
I don't think you can avoid being a type III with your current outlook though.
Because you have this abstract wish to "write programs" without considering what the purpose of the program is.
Or why.
That's indicative of the very disease that makes a type III.
The desire to make something useful must precede the desire to make.
And, in the ideal scenario, the desire to make something useful must act as an exception to your desire to _not_ make anything.
So, it's worth reevaluating why you even want to just write programs.
For more likely than not it is for the very same reasons outlined in a type III.
>>21
The whole point of the article is that Type III people shouldn't be allowed to join "worthy" (Type II) "open source" (Free Software) ventures.
>>23
Important point. Yet are the Type III condemned to be?
So, you admit that you are that nasty spammer who is obsessed with link spamming on textboards, imageboards, and forums.
No.
Have you no shame?
Also no.
Soon, the programming language and Lisp community will need to add mentions of your website to the ad blocking blacklists.
Calm down.
I don't have any original ideas.
Get some. Also, I agree with >>22 on this. Writing to write is graphomania.
Join a worthy open source venture.
Isn't that a recipe for a life of poverty?
You will need to constantly beg users for donations.
Much better to become a monk at a software temple where lay programmers visit to give alms and seek spiritual guidance.
You don't have to pathologize everything. Maybe people want to write programs not because they have an obsessive impulse to write, but because they actually enjoy programming. It might sound strange to you, but it's a very real possibility when using Scheme.
https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html
“Won't everyone stop programming without a monetary incentive?”
Actually, many people will program with absolutely no monetary incentive. Programming has an irresistible fascination for some people, usually the people who are best at it. There is no shortage of professional musicians who keep at it even though they have no hope of making a living that way.
But really this question, though commonly asked, is not appropriate to the situation. Pay for programmers will not disappear, only become less. So the right question is, will anyone program with a reduced monetary incentive? My experience shows that they will.
For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers worked at the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than they could have had anywhere else. They got many kinds of nonmonetary rewards: fame and appreciation, for example. And creativity is also fun, a reward in itself.
Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same interesting work for a lot of money.
What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned.
You missed another important fragment of the lisp community: irc. If you want to see "what smart Lispers are up to" that seems like the best place to go.
If you are interested in witnessing lisp projects and collaboration, why don't you check the places specifically dedicated to hosting such things?
https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=lisp&s=stars&type=Repositories
>>6
It's good enough, but it's getting to the point where choosing Lisp is more work and not even that fun.
most Lispers are on their own, by design most likely
Most lispers are anonymous, by design most likely
What a load of bullshit. You need to regain contact with reality: most lispers do not visit imageboards or this place, especially not the ones who have written more than 100 lines of lisp. And they do collaborate on github. Finally, you make it sound as if the lisp ecosystem is getting worse, while the opposite is the case: thanks to quicklisp, asdf, github and the like working with lisp is the easiest it has been in quite some time. Truth is, working with any language outside of the top 20 is a pain in the ass due to a lack of libraries and tools; that's why clojure and other embedded lisp are popular.
other embedded lisp are popular
For example?
I doubt an advanced phpbb forum for Lisp users would have a lot of users. I think there are several in existence already.